1 00:00:04,770 --> 00:00:10,240 [Music] 2 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,719 Welcome everyone to a Clear Mountain 3 00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:15,440 Monastery conversation. We're very happy 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,440 to have Yuvall and Noah Harrari joining 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,520 us today. So Yuvall, thank you so much 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,760 for taking the time. Thank you for 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,640 inviting me. So I'll just read a very 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,599 short bio. So Noah Harrari is a 9 00:00:27,599 --> 00:00:29,199 historian, philosopher, and bestselling 10 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:32,320 author of Sapiens, Homodus, 21 Lessons 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,480 for the 21st century, and his newest 12 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,280 book, Nexus. His books have sold over 45 13 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,600 million copies in 65 languages, making 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,480 him one of the world's most influential 15 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:44,239 intellectuals. Born in Israel in 1976, 16 00:00:44,239 --> 00:00:46,640 he earned his PhD from Oxford and has 17 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,559 lectured at the Hebrew University of 18 00:00:48,559 --> 00:00:51,120 Jerusalem. most relevant for our 19 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,520 conversation today. Yuvall is a 20 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,440 long-term meditator having set his first 21 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,480 going of vipasa retreat at the age of 24 22 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,840 I believe and he maintains a daily 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,920 sitting practice of two hours a day and 24 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,280 each year we'll try to do a 30 or 60day 25 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,360 meditation 26 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,000 retreat. So yeah, just jumping in to 27 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,560 that vein of things. um curious if you 28 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,720 could talk about how that first your 29 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,680 first meditation retreat changed your 30 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,520 life and maybe describe for people who 31 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,840 don't know what a uh Goinka retreat 32 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,080 looks like. 33 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,880 Um at the time I was doing my PhD in 34 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,040 history at 35 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,960 Oxford. Uh but I was also looking for 36 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:42,240 um to understand the the the deep cause 37 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,280 of of misery not in an in a theoretical 38 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,200 way but but of really of the misery in 39 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,040 my life. It was quite a a a miserable 40 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:58,479 period for me and I couldn't find any 41 00:01:58,479 --> 00:02:02,399 satisfying answers in all the books and 42 00:02:02,399 --> 00:02:05,280 articles that that I read in all the 43 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,200 philosophical discussions I had with 44 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,560 people in the lectures at the 45 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,440 university. Um it seemed like humans 46 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,000 have no 47 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,040 idea what life is all about. 48 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,200 what is the cause of suffering and what 49 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,000 could be done about it. And I had a 50 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,200 friend who constantly nagged me for more 51 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,680 than a year to go and try a meditation 52 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,080 retreat. And um it was quite annoying, 53 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,680 but he kept it he was very persistent 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,120 and I didn't I I I I had no idea what 55 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,599 meditation is. I thought it was some 56 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:47,400 kind of mystical ritual that 57 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,319 um he has nothing for me there. But 58 00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:55,200 eventually I I became so desperate that 59 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,519 I said why not. And what really 60 00:02:57,519 --> 00:03:00,720 attracted me it's it's a bit is that 61 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,840 when when I began to show more interest 62 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,879 he sent me this friend uh uh the code of 63 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:10,720 conduct of of the meditation retreat. 64 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Previously didn't really talk too much 65 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,440 about what I have to do there. He sent 66 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,920 me the code of conduct and it says that 67 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,920 you have to be silent for 10 days and 68 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,319 for many people this is a huge barrier. 69 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:25,519 I mean there are many people who have 70 00:03:25,519 --> 00:03:27,440 this idea that oh vip the pasan 71 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,760 meditation this is silence it's not for 72 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,239 us but for me this was the the main 73 00:03:32,239 --> 00:03:33,840 attraction again I thought the 74 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,080 meditation itself it's it's probably 75 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,599 some kind of mystical nonsense but 10 76 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:42,840 days of silence there was something like 77 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,760 irresistible in in that idea and I 78 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,280 went 79 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,799 and the very first day I was absolutely 80 00:03:52,799 --> 00:03:57,040 kind of literally mind boggled. My mind 81 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,599 was boggled was kind of I was astounded. 82 00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:03,840 No, the the the practice was extremely 83 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,000 simple. In the first days of the 84 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,799 retreat, uh Guena just instructs the 85 00:04:08,799 --> 00:04:11,360 students to focus all the attention on 86 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,959 the breath coming in and out of the 87 00:04:12,959 --> 00:04:15,280 nostrils and just feel when the breath 88 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,600 is coming in and when it's going out. 89 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,440 And it sounded like, you know, the 90 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,519 easiest thing in the world. And I 91 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:23,720 couldn't do it for more than 10 92 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,560 seconds. Uh my mind would constantly run 93 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,759 somewhere and I was 94 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:34,160 astounded how little I knew about my 95 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,000 mind that I have no control of it that I 96 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,080 don't understand it. You know, I thought 97 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,479 I was a very intelligent person. I was 98 00:04:42,479 --> 00:04:44,880 doing my PhD at Oxford. I read all these 99 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,759 philosophy books but I really didn't 100 00:04:47,759 --> 00:04:51,280 know anything uh about my mind and how 101 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:52,199 it 102 00:04:52,199 --> 00:04:56,000 works and Guena kept 103 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:56,840 uh 104 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,479 saying that just observe the reality as 105 00:05:00,479 --> 00:05:03,040 it is. If your mind wanders away it's 106 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,040 perfectly 107 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,560 fine. This is the reality of the present 108 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,280 moment that at the present moment your 109 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,880 mind is very agitated and it it it runs 110 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,360 away to thoughts to memories to fantasy. 111 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,479 This is the reality and this instruction 112 00:05:18,479 --> 00:05:21,360 just observe the reality as it is. There 113 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,759 is no judgment. There is no fire plane 114 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:28,639 you need to to to reach. There is no 115 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:31,440 goal. You just need to be with the with 116 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,600 the reality of the present moment. This 117 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,440 was kind of the first instruction that I 118 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,440 that I got in that first day of 119 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,520 meditation and I still think it's the 120 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,680 most important thing anybody ever told 121 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,039 me. Um and and and it completely changed 122 00:05:47,039 --> 00:05:51,280 my life and also my my my work. I don't 123 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:54,560 think I would have been able to to to 124 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,639 write the books like like Sapiens or 125 00:05:57,639 --> 00:06:01,919 Nexus without the the clarity and the 126 00:06:01,919 --> 00:06:05,440 balance that the meditation provided or 127 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,880 I I don't think I would have been able 128 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,240 to deal with all you know the the 129 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,240 tensions and the issues that 130 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,440 success and and fame and public 131 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,160 attention brings with it. 132 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,520 So um I think that that's 133 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,360 that's gives some taste of of what again 134 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,960 for me was I think that the most 135 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,639 important thing I I ever did in my life 136 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:36,800 was go to that first first retreat. 137 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,520 admit that as a as a monk, it's it's 138 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,199 actually quite touching to hear someone 139 00:06:41,199 --> 00:06:43,280 speak about, you know, the Buddha's 140 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,080 teachings and the practice as 141 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,600 um you know, such a public figure as uh 142 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,039 speak about the teachings in such a 143 00:06:51,039 --> 00:06:53,680 powerful way. And I'm curious, you're 144 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,280 speaking about the moment of learning to 145 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,840 put down stories 146 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,560 and Goa, you know, has been so skillful 147 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,720 in framing the teachings in a way that's 148 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,039 quite palatable to a modern secular 149 00:07:05,039 --> 00:07:07,680 audience. um as a putting down a story 150 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,479 so that you can see them more 151 00:07:09,479 --> 00:07:12,479 clearly. But as you do step deeper into 152 00:07:12,479 --> 00:07:15,680 kind of this this world um you realize 153 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,479 there is another story um you know the 154 00:07:18,479 --> 00:07:20,880 Buddha and the polycanon and the 155 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,880 teachings as a whole ecosystem and 156 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,840 landscape. So I'm curious, you know, how 157 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,840 is your what's your relationship like 158 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,960 with that kind of that vista of the 159 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,720 polycanon and Buddhism beyond just um 160 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,639 say the the meditation retreat it 161 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:38,960 itself? How has that evolved? And would 162 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,199 you characterize yourself as a Buddhist 163 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:42,720 actually? 164 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,680 Um I I don't think so. I mean, I 165 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,720 know a from my day job as a historian 166 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,639 how traditions and religions develop 167 00:07:54,639 --> 00:07:57,240 over centuries and thousands of 168 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,120 years, how they 169 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,319 accumulate this layer upon layer of of 170 00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:07,759 stories and sometimes mythologies and 171 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:11,520 traditions and rituals and it becomes so 172 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,080 difficult to know what is the 173 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,319 um what was really the original teaching 174 00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:22,840 and what was added 175 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,759 later. Um people always project back so 176 00:08:27,759 --> 00:08:30,479 many things. 177 00:08:30,479 --> 00:08:35,560 For me, what made it uh um easy to say 178 00:08:35,560 --> 00:08:38,719 coexist with all these stories and 179 00:08:38,719 --> 00:08:41,959 mythologies and and rituals 180 00:08:41,959 --> 00:08:45,600 is is again this emphasis that maybe 181 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,600 comes from Guena and maybe is not part 182 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,120 of the tradition. But this is how I got 183 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,200 acquainted with this with the tradition 184 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,760 on the reality of the present moment. 185 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,040 What is the reality? what is actually 186 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,480 happening. And the idea that just 187 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,279 believing a story, just believing a 188 00:09:08,279 --> 00:09:12,080 theory won't help you. It could be true 189 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:13,959 or it could be false. Even if you 190 00:09:13,959 --> 00:09:17,920 believe a true story, simply believing 191 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,360 it changes nothing. 192 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,080 Um 193 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,080 and 194 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,680 the I I I remember in in several of the 195 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,320 instructions that Goena again repeatedly 196 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,040 said every every dity is 197 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,200 miti every belief every view is wrong 198 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,880 view that if you just hold on to the 199 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,560 view oh I believe in this so this means 200 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:51,120 I'm a good person and such and such 201 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,959 wonderful things will happen to me just 202 00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:55,600 because I believe in this story then you 203 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,160 you haven't understood 204 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,560 anything at least this is the way that 205 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:04,519 he uh put it and this is still my basic 206 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:08,880 attitude that uh it's it's less in 207 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,240 contrast to say monotheistic traditions 208 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,519 especially Christianity and and Islam 209 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:20,640 which place enormous emphasis on faith 210 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,240 that ultimately redemption, salvation 211 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,600 depends on believing the right thing. 212 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,160 And you know in Christianity uh at least 213 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,959 in Orthodox and Catholic Christianity 214 00:10:32,959 --> 00:10:37,480 you had entire committees of 215 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,440 theologians and and and and church 216 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,680 leaders sitting together and and and 217 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,600 cobbling and and creating this credle 218 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,079 this very 219 00:10:49,079 --> 00:10:51,240 complex 220 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,480 formula that you have to believe this 221 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,160 exact formula you know entire wars were 222 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,360 fought in Christian religion about one 223 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,040 word in this formula like is you have 224 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,120 the trinity you have the father son and 225 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,120 the holy spirit what is the relation 226 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,519 between 227 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:13,519 them are there different persons are 228 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,320 there three aspects of the same person 229 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,720 do they have the same essence so many 230 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,959 philosophical discussions that most 231 00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:22,440 people don't 232 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,600 understand but you have the idea that if 233 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,079 I only say that I believe in the right 234 00:11:29,079 --> 00:11:34,000 formula, this will save me forever. 235 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:40,000 And um for me this makes no sense. 236 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,560 One of the things I liked about Buddhism 237 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:45,760 is that you know belief to some extent 238 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,000 is of course important. If you don't 239 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,399 believe that going to a meditation 240 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:52,880 retreat will help you in some way, you 241 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,360 won't go there. 242 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,200 But the belief it in 243 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,480 itself doesn't do anything for you. 244 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,200 It's your ability to actually observe 245 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,519 the 246 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:09,680 reality without reaction, without 247 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,240 judgment, to just see things as they 248 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,959 are. This is what liberates. 249 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:22,160 you've all as you've as we're trying to 250 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,680 discern the difference between what's 251 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:25,680 truth and what is a story, you've talked 252 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,560 about just how we can see that uh 253 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:31,920 suffering is undeniably real on a 254 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,320 certain level. And that's that's the 255 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,399 first truth of you know the four noble 256 00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:39,200 truths of Buddhism. What is your take on 257 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,079 the other three of the noble truths that 258 00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:44,320 craving is the cause of suffering? That 259 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,040 there is a sessation there's a way to 260 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,240 completely transcend uh our mental 261 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,079 experience of suffering and that 262 00:12:52,079 --> 00:12:54,240 following this eight-fold path of you 263 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,000 know uh harmlessness of body, speech and 264 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,079 mind of training the mind in uh right 265 00:13:02,079 --> 00:13:05,200 right view and right understanding. um 266 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,920 that there's reality in these as well. 267 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,800 My understanding is this is not a credo. 268 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,120 This is not something that you kind of I 269 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,800 believe that there is suffering. I 270 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,399 believe that suffering has a has a 271 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,000 cause. No, it's about actually 272 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,120 practicing it, witnessing it. And it 273 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,120 starts with with the first noble truth 274 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,279 that you know most practitioners 275 00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:31,680 including myself, we try to find a 276 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:34,240 shortcut around it. 277 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,360 And it's very common in my practice in 278 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,160 in practice of friends I talk with that 279 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,480 you sit for 280 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,560 meditation and you you think oh this is 281 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:45,720 not a good 282 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,040 meditation I'm not focused my mind is 283 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,440 all over the place or there is some very 284 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,000 strong pain in my in my back and I just 285 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,959 I just can't accept it I'm I'm resisting 286 00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:00,839 the pain. This is not a good 287 00:14:00,839 --> 00:14:03,720 meditation. And actually this is 288 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,000 potentially the best meditation in the 289 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,880 world because you are in the presence of 290 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,839 the first noble 291 00:14:10,839 --> 00:14:15,240 truth that you now are witnessing 292 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,160 suffering and you witness the little 293 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,160 suffering of an agitated mind. You you 294 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,519 witness the little suffering of a mind 295 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:29,360 reacting to pain with with rejection. 296 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,040 And if if I can only be with that and 297 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,199 witness the first noble truth, oh this 298 00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:36,360 is 299 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320 suffering, then this is 300 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,680 liberation. And it's the same with with 301 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,959 the the other three noble truths like 302 00:14:44,959 --> 00:14:48,480 craving is the arising of suffering. 303 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,519 I this is something that that I I I 304 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:54,480 sometimes witness directly like I sit 305 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,440 for meditation everything is okay and 306 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,839 after say 40 minutes or 50 minutes 307 00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:03,519 suddenly a thought arises in the mind oh 308 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:05,160 it's probably almost 309 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,399 over and when it's over I'll be able to 310 00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:11,440 go and eat or call my friend or do this 311 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,959 or do that and then it becomes a little 312 00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:17,360 bit of misery because it's still not 313 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,959 over but my mind is already rolling in 314 00:15:20,959 --> 00:15:23,120 this oh it's almost over it will soon be 315 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,560 over and I can do this and the the 316 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,440 moment that craving 317 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,519 arises misery 318 00:15:30,519 --> 00:15:33,279 arises so that it's not some kind of 319 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:35,839 theory that I'm a good Buddhist because 320 00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:38,680 I believe that craving is the source of 321 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,720 suffering but I can actually 322 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,160 witness that how the arising of craving 323 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,839 is simultaneous ously with it suffering 324 00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:53,560 also arises. 325 00:15:53,839 --> 00:15:56,880 So that's a very you know uh practical 326 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,440 and moment to moment and pract 327 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,279 practicable um sort of vision of of 328 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:06,240 meditation and this path. And it's 329 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,320 interesting because in 21 lessons for 330 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,440 the 21st century you end the whole book 331 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,680 with a chapter called meditation just 332 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,120 observe. And for such an expansive book 333 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,079 to end on, you know, such a practical 334 00:16:20,079 --> 00:16:24,079 and um a practical note uh was 335 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:25,440 interesting and surprising and 336 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,240 heartening to me all at the same time. 337 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,079 And you know you talked about how you 338 00:16:30,079 --> 00:16:32,560 were uh excited to have a interview that 339 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,600 wasn't just about AI but uh we are I am 340 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:36,920 curious 341 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,759 uh you've talked about hackable humans 342 00:16:39,759 --> 00:16:43,680 and the importance of meditation in 343 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,120 humanity encountering this new era. So 344 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,279 why why is meditation important right 345 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:51,519 now? Why did you end that whole book on 346 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:54,880 that note? And has your view on the 347 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,639 importance and relevance of that chapter 348 00:16:56,639 --> 00:16:58,800 or your optimism changed in the last 349 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,639 seven years since you wrote it? 350 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:04,959 So I think meditation only became more 351 00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:07,000 important for me because of the AI 352 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,280 revolution. For me the biggest question 353 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,439 about AI is whether AI has 354 00:17:12,439 --> 00:17:14,400 consciousness, whether it has the 355 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,039 capacity one day perhaps to develop 356 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:19,600 consciousness. I don't know the answer. 357 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,760 uh but I think it's the most important 358 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,120 question of all. Uh there is this huge 359 00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:27,919 confusion in the AI community and in the 360 00:17:27,919 --> 00:17:30,360 world at large between consciousness and 361 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:33,919 intelligence which is behind many of the 362 00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:36,640 dangers that we now witness in the 363 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,240 world. To put put it very briefly, 364 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,120 intelligence is the ability to pursue 365 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,559 goals and overcome problems on the way 366 00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:50,000 to the goal. Like you play chess, you 367 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,039 have a goal to take the opponent's king 368 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:54,960 and you have all kinds of obstacles on 369 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,039 the way because the opponent is doing 370 00:17:57,039 --> 00:17:59,679 all kinds of of of things. And 371 00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:02,480 intelligence is what enables you to 372 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,039 focus on the goal and overcome the 373 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:07,440 problems on the way. of you're driving a 374 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,240 car. So you have a goal to reach say the 375 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,559 train station and you have to navigate 376 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,440 there dealing with all kinds of issues, 377 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,000 traffic lights, pedestrians, other cars. 378 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,160 This is 379 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,919 intelligence and this is something that 380 00:18:21,919 --> 00:18:25,120 as we all know AI is now able to do 381 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,000 better than us. It defeats us in chess. 382 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,640 It will soon drive better than us. It 383 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,880 has superior intelligence. But 384 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,720 consciousness is something else. 385 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,240 consciousness I would it's the ability 386 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,880 to feel things like pain and pleasure 387 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,640 and love and hate ultimately I think the 388 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,760 my definition of consciousness is simply 389 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,799 the capacity to 390 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:53,520 suffer a conscious entity a sentient 391 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,799 entity is an entity that has a capacity 392 00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,880 to suffer and also of course to be 393 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,880 liberated from 394 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,200 suffering. Now the interesting thing 395 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,440 about the capacity to suffer because 396 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,400 then you can ask so what is suffering 397 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,880 and the best definition I've found in 398 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,640 both science and meditation for what is 399 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,160 suffering? Suffering is the rejection of 400 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,799 reality. 401 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:25,400 Like if you think about say a 402 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,919 thermostat measuring the temperature in 403 00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:31,120 the room and maybe connected to a an air 404 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,160 conditioning unit. So a thermostat 405 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,919 measures that the room is now say 406 00:19:36,919 --> 00:19:39,840 30° and then starts the air conditioning 407 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,640 unit to cool it 408 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,640 down. Uh so it made a decision. It has a 409 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,919 goal. It has some level of 410 00:19:46,919 --> 00:19:49,000 intelligence the 411 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,600 thermostat but it has no consciousness. 412 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,400 It doesn't suffer. Even if you throw a 413 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,720 thermostat into a cauldron of boiling 414 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,600 water at 100°, if it's a good 415 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320 thermostat, it will not break. It will 416 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,120 measure 100°. That's it. It will not 417 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:10,039 suffer because it doesn't reject the 418 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:12,799 reality. Suffering is something very 419 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:15,360 very strange that the only thing in the 420 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,760 universe that is capable of experiencing 421 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,640 as far as we know is consciousness. is 422 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,000 conscious being that you experience 423 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,320 something and even though it's the 424 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,240 reality of the present moment you 425 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,320 somehow nevertheless reject 426 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,640 it like you 427 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,120 experience it's 428 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,760 hot and you don't say oh I wish it will 429 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,679 be cooler tomorrow or in a minute but I 430 00:20:45,679 --> 00:20:49,679 want it now not to be hot and this is 431 00:20:49,679 --> 00:20:50,480 illogical 432 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,280 I mean it's now hot. You just measured 433 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,000 that it's hot. So how is it possible for 434 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,960 it not to be hot right now? You can take 435 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,000 all kinds of of actions so it will be 436 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,120 less hot later on. But right now it's 437 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,960 hot. There is nothing you can do about 438 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,320 it. So but the the suffering part is not 439 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,240 that it's hot is that I don't I don't I 440 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,880 reject it. I don't like it. And this is 441 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,640 also the difference between pain and 442 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,159 suffer. Pain is just a 443 00:21:21,159 --> 00:21:23,440 sensation. You can feel pain and not 444 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,919 suffer. The suffering comes when there 445 00:21:25,919 --> 00:21:30,240 is pain and I I refuse to to to I to 446 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,240 accept it that there is pain and what is 447 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,720 it in the universe that can reject 448 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,559 reality? What kind of thing can reject 449 00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:44,480 reality? Um and this is again a big 450 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,200 question about AI also. Are they able to 451 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,280 reject 452 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,760 reality and and to 453 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,400 suffer? Now, another related question is 454 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,080 about truth and the pursuit of truth. A 455 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,480 lot of people, especially in Silicon 456 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,799 Valley, they hope that AI will reveal 457 00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:10,240 the truth about the world. They think 458 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,520 that because it is highly 459 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,400 intelligent, it will pursue the truth. 460 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,440 They have they they create a link which 461 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,280 I think is a mistake between 462 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,760 intelligence and 463 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,440 truth. Maybe they make the mistake 464 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,840 because they themselves are highly 465 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,600 intelligent people. So they overv value 466 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,280 and overemphasis 467 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,120 intelligence. But I don't think that 468 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:42,880 intelligence is linked to truth. Human 469 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000 beings are the most intelligent entities 470 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,799 on the planet as far as we know and they 471 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,919 are also the most delusional entities on 472 00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:52,679 the 473 00:22:52,679 --> 00:22:56,080 planet. Uh so if AI is super 474 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,559 intelligent, it could also be super 475 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:01,919 delusional. Why think that an 476 00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:05,280 intelligent entity will pursue truth and 477 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,440 not say power? If AI learns from the 478 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,200 people who develop it, from the tycoons 479 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,320 of of Silicon Valley, then you know 480 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,440 children learn from how their parents 481 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,760 behave, not from what their parents say. 482 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,919 If the AI observes the tycoons of 483 00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:25,760 Silicon Valley, it will not pursue 484 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,640 truth. It will pursue power. 485 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,679 Now what is it in the universe that 486 00:23:31,679 --> 00:23:35,159 really has a very deep 487 00:23:35,159 --> 00:23:39,440 ingrained passionate urge for the truth? 488 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,880 I would say it's consciousness not 489 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,960 intelligence. Why? Because again 490 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,159 suffering is the rejection of 491 00:23:47,159 --> 00:23:51,400 reality. Truth is the recognition of 492 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,480 reality. Conscious entities they don't 493 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,960 always do so. Of course, this is why we 494 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,440 need all the practice. But conscious 495 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,919 entities because they have the capacity 496 00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:03,240 to 497 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,559 suffer when they reject reality. They 498 00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:11,720 also have this deep urge to know the 499 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,360 truth because this liberates them from 500 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,039 suffering. 501 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,039 And this is and this this tension 502 00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:20,960 between intelligence and consciousness. 503 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,559 I think it's the most important issue 504 00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:28,000 with regard to the AI revolution. 505 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,159 So this is speaking about that tension 506 00:24:30,159 --> 00:24:33,440 with the AI entities we're creating. And 507 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,000 yet that final chapter of 21 lessons is 508 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,880 directed at the reader and you know 509 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,799 speaking about how we become less 510 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,360 hackable or less vulnerable to these 511 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,039 algorithmic you know steerings of our of 512 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:49,799 our 513 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,720 lives. Where does that fall in as sort 514 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,799 of an an adjacent issue in this AI 515 00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:57,760 revolution? How key do you see 516 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,240 introspection in this moment in 517 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,480 humanity's sort of development? 518 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,720 It's a very important question. I mean 519 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,320 throughout history, you know, people 520 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,159 always gave this advice, know 521 00:25:11,159 --> 00:25:14,559 yourself. Get to know yourself better. 522 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,360 But previously, we didn't really have 523 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:18,360 strong 524 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,960 competition. Previously in history, 525 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,679 nobody was in a position to know us 526 00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:26,240 better than we know ourselves. Maybe our 527 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,279 parents when we were children understood 528 00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:31,520 us better than we understand ourselves. 529 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,840 But usually you could trust your parents 530 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,840 to have your best interests in mind. So 531 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,400 this was fine. But no government, no 532 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,520 corporation, no church could actually 533 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,559 get to know you better than you know 534 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:48,559 yourself. Now we have something that can 535 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:50,159 get to know us better than we know 536 00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:53,279 ourselves. AI and we cannot trust it the 537 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:55,360 same way we trust our mother. When we 538 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:56,799 are little children, it's very 539 00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,520 dangerous. We already see with social 540 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,279 media, our algorithms manipulate us for 541 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:04,200 their 542 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,120 purposes. Social media algorithms were 543 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,400 given the task by the social media 544 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,080 companies to increase user 545 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,440 engagement. You know, engagement sounds 546 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,120 like a nice thing. Who doesn't want to 547 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:20,760 be engaged? 548 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,799 But for the algorithms, if the only 549 00:26:24,799 --> 00:26:27,880 measure of success is 550 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,799 engagement, this means their goal is to 551 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,200 get people to spend more time on Tik 552 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,000 Tok, on Facebook, on Instagram, 553 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,760 whatever. For them, one hour of anger or 554 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,760 fear or greed is better than 10 minutes 555 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,960 of joy or than two hours of sleep. 556 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,840 They they reduced the whole complexity 557 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,919 of human life to a single measure of 558 00:26:54,919 --> 00:26:58,440 engagement which is measured mainly in 559 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,039 minutes. How many minutes do you spend 560 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:03,039 on the platform? 561 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:06,159 And the algorithms experimented on 562 00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:09,200 billions of human beings and discovered 563 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,120 that the easiest way to create 564 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:15,440 engagement to grab our attention is to 565 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,720 press the hate button or the fear button 566 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,159 or the greed button in the mind that if 567 00:27:22,159 --> 00:27:24,360 something makes me very 568 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,919 angry, I can't stop watching it and I 569 00:27:27,919 --> 00:27:29,919 can't stop talking about it with other 570 00:27:29,919 --> 00:27:33,120 people. And this is what they do. And 571 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,039 this is one of the reasons for this 572 00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:41,039 epidemic of uh uh uh distrust and 573 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:43,600 outrage which is destroying societies 574 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,159 all over the world. So what the AIS are 575 00:27:46,159 --> 00:27:49,320 actually doing, they discovered our own 576 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,200 weaknesses and use it against us. If 577 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,080 there is some, let's say, group in 578 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,960 society that you already 579 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,840 dislike, the AIS discover it and then 580 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,279 show you more and more videos or stories 581 00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:07,960 that make you hate this group even 582 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,840 more. They need to understand our 583 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,399 weaknesses to turn it against us. Now, 584 00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:16,960 this is where the advice to get to know 585 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,679 yourself uh through meditation or 586 00:28:19,679 --> 00:28:22,080 through other means becomes more 587 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,600 important than ever because we are now 588 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,440 in the presence of entities that are 589 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,559 constantly watching us looking for our 590 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:33,720 own 591 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,320 weaknesses. And when they discover our 592 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,279 weaknesses, they use it against us. To 593 00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:42,159 protect ourselves, we need to get to 594 00:28:42,159 --> 00:28:45,360 know our weaknesses better. Then we can 595 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,919 protect ourselves to some extent. And 596 00:28:47,919 --> 00:28:49,760 this is what meditation enables us to 597 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,480 do. It's like in a way an antivirus for 598 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,200 the 599 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,799 mind. Yeah. Seeing this liability um of 600 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:01,360 yeah these huge algorithms to be able to 601 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,320 hack us, hack our attention. Um, you've 602 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,159 talked about the importance of having an 603 00:29:06,159 --> 00:29:08,080 information diet and I'm curious if you 604 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,080 could give us any information diet 605 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,399 advice and is there a place ever for 606 00:29:12,399 --> 00:29:15,360 just a complete media fast? Just totally 607 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,080 putting down all news watching and all 608 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,440 the media for periods of time. Yeah, I 609 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,200 think it's a good analogy to think about 610 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,520 information like food. Information is 611 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,240 the food of the mind. And we have 612 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,039 learned about some things about the food 613 00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:33,600 of the body that of course the body 614 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,640 needs food in order to survive and to 615 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,600 grow and to be healthy. Food isn't bad. 616 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,799 But we need a diet. First of all, we 617 00:29:42,799 --> 00:29:45,320 learned that too much food isn't a good 618 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,039 idea. Yes, we need food, but not too 619 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:51,440 much. And secondly, we've learned that 620 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,120 uh we need to be careful about the 621 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,000 quality of the food we are feeding our 622 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,799 body. And some people, you know, they're 623 00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:02,480 extremely mindful these days about what 624 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080 they eat. And finally, we've learned 625 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,320 that um to to really be 626 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,799 healthy, it's important not just to eat, 627 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:16,240 but also to digest. If you just eat all 628 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,480 day and you don't give your stomach time 629 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,600 to digest, it's it's not good for you. 630 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,640 Exactly the same principles hold for the 631 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,120 mind and for the food of the mind which 632 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,159 is information. Too much information 633 00:30:30,159 --> 00:30:33,600 just isn't good for us. If we flood the 634 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,320 mind by a an enormous amount of 635 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,480 information, we don't give the mind any 636 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,760 time to digest it. 637 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,880 And as with food, also with information, 638 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,600 digestion is actually more time 639 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,760 consuming and in a way more important 640 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,960 than just putting it 641 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,480 in. So um if you spend an x amount of 642 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,000 time consuming information, you need to 643 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,360 give the the mind sufficient time to 644 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,919 digest it to how do you tell the 645 00:31:09,919 --> 00:31:11,279 difference? What is reliable 646 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:13,760 information? what is unreliable, what to 647 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,399 do with this information. And of course, 648 00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:18,799 we need to be mindful about the quality 649 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:20,760 of the information we 650 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,200 consume. So, you know, we we have on on 651 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,919 food, we have sometimes labels that show 652 00:31:25,919 --> 00:31:29,600 us the amount of sugar and fat and salt 653 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,080 in in what we eat. If you eat some 654 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,039 crisps and it says that this contains 655 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:39,600 20% fat, 10% salt, 20% sugar, and you 656 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,360 want to eat it. So, okay, it's a free 657 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,120 kung fu, you can eat it, but you at 658 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,960 least you know what you're putting 659 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,840 inside your your body. Maybe we need 660 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,399 something similar for the content for 661 00:31:50,399 --> 00:31:52,480 instance on social media that you will 662 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,320 watch some video and you will see this 663 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,039 is 20% anger, 40% greed, 10% fear. If 664 00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:00,799 this is what you want to feed your mind, 665 00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:02,880 then okay, it's a free country, do it. 666 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,000 But at least you know that and you know 667 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,559 if if you constantly feed your mind on 668 00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:12,000 on a diet of anger and fear and greed, 669 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,000 it's unlikely to be a healthy mind. And 670 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,799 finally with regard to information 671 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:22,960 fasts. So um I think it is recommended 672 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,200 like with food fasts people need to be 673 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,200 aware of you know not to put the bar too 674 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,000 high and to be mindful of what is good 675 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,240 for them 676 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,600 personally. What I've the one thing I've 677 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,399 learned about food diets in my life is 678 00:32:38,399 --> 00:32:41,279 that all of them are wrong because there 679 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:44,399 is no one sizefits all. Like when I was 680 00:32:44,399 --> 00:32:47,960 in my 20s, I had irritable bowel 681 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,760 syndrome and um so because I read about 682 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,120 all these food diets, I I I tried to eat 683 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,760 very healthy food. So I would eat only 684 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,480 brown rice and Neville white rice and 685 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,760 all only meal bread and not white bread 686 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,120 and so forth until the doctor told me 687 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,200 that's very nice for other people. But 688 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,200 if you have irritable bowel syndrome, it 689 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,120 means your stomach have difficulty 690 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,159 digesting stuff. So you need to give it 691 00:33:16,159 --> 00:33:18,720 something simple, not complicated. So 692 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,279 you would better eat white rice and not 693 00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:23,720 brown rice. And it worked to some 694 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,679 extent. Um so there is no food diet 695 00:33:27,679 --> 00:33:30,240 which is the best for everybody and 696 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,240 there is no information diet which is 697 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,399 the best for everybody. 698 00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:36,799 Nowadays I sometimes take these long 699 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:39,679 retreats of one or two months of you 700 00:33:39,679 --> 00:33:42,799 know a 60 days information fast but I 701 00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:44,720 wouldn't recommend to all the all our 702 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,679 viewers to now go on a 60 days 703 00:33:47,679 --> 00:33:50,200 information fast this could be 704 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,600 extreme but to start with a few hours or 705 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,080 like a weekend I I think this would be a 706 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,000 good start for everybody every now and 707 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,519 then. 708 00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:01,519 Do you think there's a place for a class 709 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:04,960 of people say on the extreme end of 710 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,480 information diet? I mean there are 711 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,079 monastics in our tradition who just 712 00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:10,639 don't watch any news who just feel that 713 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,520 it's improper to even say read non 714 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,200 dharma books, non-harma books that 715 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,879 aren't aren't Buddhism. Do you think 716 00:34:16,879 --> 00:34:19,200 there's a place like a value of someone 717 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,359 who comes with that perspective if 718 00:34:21,359 --> 00:34:23,040 otherwise they're living a a very 719 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,720 healthy life but they're just not 720 00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:26,359 watching news? 721 00:34:26,359 --> 00:34:29,280 Absolutely. Again I think that there is 722 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,320 a place in the world for a very wide 723 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,960 spectrum of of people and and attitudes. 724 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,639 Um you know we need politicians that 725 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:41,839 their life almost 24 hours a day is is 726 00:34:41,839 --> 00:34:44,240 politics. Part of the problem today in 727 00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:46,480 the world is that not enough pe good 728 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,440 people are going to to be politicians 729 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,960 because it's an extremely demanding job 730 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,040 and for um u compassionate and sensitive 731 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,000 people it's also an extremely 732 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,160 unrewarding job. It's very very so we 733 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,280 and but I said it because we also need 734 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,119 the opposite. 735 00:35:09,119 --> 00:35:11,760 We also need people who are completely 736 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,359 not involved in any way with politics 737 00:35:15,359 --> 00:35:19,200 and they dedicate their lives to 738 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,480 preserving and developing other things 739 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,280 in in reality. Uh so I don't think it's 740 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,280 mutually 741 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,640 contradictory that because we need some 742 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,839 politicians that nobody should be a a a 743 00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:33,920 monk who sits in a cave and is 744 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,079 completely disconnected from politics. 745 00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:38,240 But also the opposite. Just because we 746 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,800 uh we need these monks in the caves and 747 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,680 we admire them, it doesn't mean that if 748 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,680 somebody goes to be a politician, then 749 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,440 we say to them, "No, you're wasting your 750 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,000 life on the wrong thing." 751 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,440 Thank you, Yub. And we wouldn't have 752 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,680 taken it personally if you had. Um 753 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,240 curious about the information diet. Um 754 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:00,480 you spoke about the kind of difficulties 755 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,000 of someone in a position of authority 756 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,040 and the diet of fame of repute. You know 757 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,599 the Buddha was very he singled it out 758 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:12,000 you know uh gain honor and praise our 759 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,400 harsh bitter thing an obstacle to the 760 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,480 unacelled relief from bondage or release 761 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,119 from bondage. And you know, I'm really 762 00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:21,119 curious what it's been like for you to 763 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:23,680 go from a, you know, kind of normal 764 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,040 college lecturer or at 765 00:36:30,839 --> 00:36:33,560 le how how has that experience been as a 766 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,599 practitioner and how have you seen it 767 00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:37,760 affect others like around you? Like what 768 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,400 are things like in that echelon of the 769 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,800 zeitgeist of culture at the moment? like 770 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,320 um are people, you know, have you seen 771 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,839 people able to hold their centers 772 00:36:47,839 --> 00:36:50,079 through that? Um what's it been like to 773 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:51,839 be in those waters for for you? I'm 774 00:36:51,839 --> 00:36:54,160 really curious. 775 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,440 And do you need to a cave for a while or 776 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920 No, it's it's a challenge definitely, 777 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,119 but I what makes it possible for me to 778 00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:05,599 deal with it is the combination of my 779 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:07,520 own practice 780 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,320 uh that I can still every year go to a 781 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,119 long retreat and almost every day 782 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,880 maintain the my my practice of two hours 783 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,800 and in addition to that that I'm 784 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,960 surrounded by people who are helping me. 785 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,280 So my husband and me, we've we've 786 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,520 established a social me a social impact 787 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,960 company a couple of years ago and we 788 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,960 have like 20 employees who uh 789 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,240 um serve as a kind of 790 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:44,800 buffer between me and these waves of of 791 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,599 demands and and attention and and 792 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:49,720 sometimes both positive and negative 793 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,079 attention can can really mess with with 794 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,880 with your mind. So I don't have to deal 795 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,200 with my social media channels and like 796 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,839 this interview I didn't arrange it. I 797 00:37:59,839 --> 00:38:02,560 mean I guess a lot of people exchange a 798 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,520 lot of emails over weeks and and months 799 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,599 to arrange this interview and I just 800 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:09,200 come here and and talk and that's that's 801 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,880 my part. Um and for instance I don't 802 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,400 carry a smartphone with me. I have it at 803 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,119 home because these days with healthcare 804 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:20,960 and other services they really demand 805 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,560 that you have a smartphone. So, I have 806 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,280 one, but I use it like an a stupid phone 807 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,320 from the '9s, basically. Uh, but that's 808 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,480 a bit unfair because my husband is is 809 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,440 carrying the smartphone for me. So, he 810 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,520 gets a lot of of all this kind of of 811 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,680 flood of attention and demand from the 812 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920 outside world and he serves as a kind of 813 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,599 of shield uh uh for me. So I'm very 814 00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:48,320 grateful for for the people who allow me 815 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,560 to maintain 816 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,240 um a degree of calmness even in the 817 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,520 midst of of this uh uh media storm or 818 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,220 attention storm. 819 00:38:59,220 --> 00:39:01,920 [Music] 820 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,880 You I think uh my favorite non Buddhist 821 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,760 quote is that is from Pascal and he says 822 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,480 that all of humanity's suffering stems 823 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,960 from the inability to sit quietly in a 824 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,400 room alone. 825 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,560 And I'm curious what you think about 826 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,599 that. How do you think it's true or what 827 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:21,119 to what extent do you think it's true or 828 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:24,720 where do you think it it falls short? 829 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:29,119 Um it's of course it's it's a it's a bit 830 00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:30,119 of of 831 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:35,160 of an extreme statement but it has a 832 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,760 very deep root of of 833 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,440 truthfulness. Um because you look at the 834 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:42,520 world 835 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,320 today and in the early 21st century, 836 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,800 humanity has reached the the blessed 837 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,400 place it it ever was by most objective 838 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,920 measurements. There are still many 839 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,320 problems in the world, many wars, 840 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,440 inequality, and so forth. But it's not 841 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,520 that it's it's a perfect world. It's a 842 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,119 better world than ever before in 843 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:09,320 history. By most objective 844 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,400 measurements, death in childbirth of of 845 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,400 of of mothers and of infants, death from 846 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,960 all kinds of infectious diseases, 847 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,119 mortality from famine, our levels of 848 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:25,040 violence. We are all at in the best 849 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,200 place we've ever been. And yet you see 850 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,400 the level of 851 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,839 outrage, of hate, of discomfort, of 852 00:40:36,839 --> 00:40:38,920 ungratefulness of 853 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,839 people. 854 00:40:40,839 --> 00:40:44,240 And it creates the impression that 855 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:46,520 something in in the human 856 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,800 mind just can't be satisfied. No, no 857 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,119 matter is what. And that no matter what 858 00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:57,960 changes we make in the outside 859 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,560 world, as long as we don't uh uh uh 860 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,800 learn how to deal with the inner 861 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,599 mechanisms of the mind, it will never be 862 00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:11,440 enough. 863 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,000 So in in this image that Pascal and and 864 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,800 creates of like you sit alone in a in a 865 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,119 room everything seems okay everything is 866 00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,920 calm there is no danger and yet there is 867 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,880 so much discomfort there is so much 868 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,160 suffering there so yes in in a sense 869 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,640 this is the root of all the problems of 870 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,440 humanity. 871 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,319 So just slightly shift the uh trajectory 872 00:41:38,319 --> 00:41:41,920 on this. Um in 21 lessons you write of 873 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,920 the theory of rebirth. The second 874 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,599 problem is the posity of supporting 875 00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:47,760 evidence while elsewhere acknowledging 876 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,480 the power of stories to overwhelm facts. 877 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,160 How can one be sure the story of 878 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,319 secularism is not blinding people to 879 00:41:54,319 --> 00:41:56,720 legitimate evidence for rebirth such as 880 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:58,240 externally corroborated accounts of 881 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,359 children's past life memories? And so 882 00:42:01,359 --> 00:42:03,520 I'm I'm not saying, you know, one way or 883 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:04,720 the other on that, but I am curious how 884 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,839 you navigate as someone who has uh you 885 00:42:07,839 --> 00:42:09,200 know, gained some confidence in the 886 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:10,960 Buddhist teachings and all these things. 887 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,040 Um how do you navigate that uh that kind 888 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,079 of tension between these wider vistas of 889 00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:20,319 cosmology or these other things and the 890 00:42:20,319 --> 00:42:21,839 power that you know, secularism 891 00:42:21,839 --> 00:42:23,119 sometimes thinks of itself as a 892 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:25,359 non-story, but it it has elements of its 893 00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:27,599 own story and yeah, how how do you kind 894 00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:29,599 of navigate that? 895 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,160 My basic principle is that if there is 896 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,680 something that you really really want to 897 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,960 believe, then you need very strong 898 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,160 supporting evidence. 899 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,240 People in Christianity really want to 900 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:43,319 believe in 901 00:42:43,319 --> 00:42:45,760 heaven. People who are Buddhists or 902 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,319 Hindus, they really want to believe in 903 00:42:48,319 --> 00:42:51,280 in rebirth. Especially, you know, people 904 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,839 all people are afraid of death, of 905 00:42:53,839 --> 00:42:56,720 complete anhilation. And it's very 906 00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:59,359 comforting and attractive to think there 907 00:42:59,359 --> 00:43:02,079 is something beyond. And because it is 908 00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:05,680 so very attractive, we need very strong 909 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,480 evidence because our mind has the 910 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,880 tendency to latch on to even weak 911 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,040 evidence. Oh, that's it. Now we I have 912 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,760 proof. I can relax. This is this what I 913 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,720 want to believe is really true. So we 914 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:23,760 need strong evidence. And also because 915 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,920 if it's true then it has so many 916 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,839 far-reaching implications. It's not 917 00:43:29,839 --> 00:43:31,680 something with with just a little impact 918 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,960 on the world. It changes everything from 919 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,000 our perspective of our present life to 920 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,520 our perspective on biology and physics 921 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,560 and the laws of nature because science 922 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,440 in its its present uh uh uh form doesn't 923 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,839 know of any mechanism 924 00:43:51,839 --> 00:43:55,440 that would allow rebirth. Now it doesn't 925 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,480 negate it either. If you understand 926 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,520 again it goes back to the issue of 927 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,599 consciousness, the the key thing with 928 00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:07,040 stories about rebirth or about heaven or 929 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,960 any any type of existence after death, 930 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,280 what people care about is not the 931 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,040 existence of the body after death. It's 932 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,400 the existence of the mind, the soul, 933 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,960 consciousness after death. Now because 934 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,599 we don't understand 935 00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:27,760 consciousness, we don't know what kind 936 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,280 of mechanisms could 937 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,760 allow maybe some part of consciousness 938 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,400 to go on 939 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,319 existing after the death of of the 940 00:44:38,319 --> 00:44:41,920 physical body. So I don't think that 941 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,599 science just says this is impossible. 942 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:48,720 It says we don't understand this aspect 943 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,599 of reality at all. 944 00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,400 Uh we know that for thousands of years 945 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,160 people had very strong beliefs with very 946 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,319 concrete theories about how it 947 00:45:01,319 --> 00:45:04,720 happens. But all these theories tend to 948 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,839 suffer from self-contradictions. 949 00:45:07,839 --> 00:45:09,920 If you really go into the theory, there 950 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,520 are things that don't really work very 951 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,359 well. And we know that people have a 952 00:45:15,359 --> 00:45:18,480 very very strong motivation to believe 953 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,160 in the story. Therefore, our kind of the 954 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,079 bar, what kind of evidence would we like 955 00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:29,280 in order to to accept it? The bar is set 956 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,200 very 957 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,240 high. If you just find a few children 958 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,319 that can apparently remember a past 959 00:45:37,319 --> 00:45:40,640 existence and identify people and 960 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,680 identify objects, this is not considered 961 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,319 again, it's not Yeah, this is evidence. 962 00:45:46,319 --> 00:45:48,720 It's good to collect this evidence and 963 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,839 and analyze it and try to learn things 964 00:45:51,839 --> 00:45:55,839 from it, but given what it is meant to 965 00:45:55,839 --> 00:45:58,319 prove, we need something stronger than 966 00:45:58,319 --> 00:46:01,319 that. 967 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,319 Hey, you in um one of my favorite quotes 968 00:46:04,319 --> 00:46:06,960 from you is you're talking about this uh 969 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,040 tendency to hold on to views and even in 970 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,200 the history of of Buddhism, the wars and 971 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,920 uh arguments and you know fights that 972 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,560 have occurred just attaching to ideas of 973 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,520 emptiness. And the quote is fighting 974 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,040 other people because you believe in the 975 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,040 glory of an eternal God is unfortunate 976 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,040 but understandable. But fighting other 977 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,160 people because you believe in the 978 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,400 emptiness of all phenomenon is truly 979 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,599 bizarre but so very human. Uh how would 980 00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:37,599 you suggest we as Buddhists avoid 981 00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:40,400 attachment to views and narcissism of 982 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,040 small differences that says only this is 983 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,800 true and everything else is wrong. 984 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,440 That's the whole practice. 985 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,640 No our whole practice is exactly how not 986 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,440 to develop attachments. And you know the 987 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,640 the more important the practice becomes 988 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,079 in your life the greater the danger that 989 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:04,800 you will develop attachment to views 990 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,599 about the practice. You're one of the 991 00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:10,560 those people who went to some retreat 992 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,760 say 10 years ago and sit every now and 993 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,079 then for 10 minutes then you probably 994 00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:18,720 don't you're not in danger of developing 995 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:20,880 very strong attachment to your views 996 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,160 about the practice. But if you you know 997 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,040 go to 60 days retreats and sit two hours 998 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,560 every day or if you're a monk the danger 999 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,280 this is your life and then the danger of 1000 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,440 attaching of of developing very strong 1001 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,319 attachment is is much much bigger and 1002 00:47:38,319 --> 00:47:40,640 this is what we saw in in in in in 1003 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,280 throughout Buddhist history. Again, I 1004 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,920 think that and I try to be objective on 1005 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,720 that. The record of Buddhism is still 1006 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:51,200 much much better than the record of 1007 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,079 Christianity or Islam. Just if you count 1008 00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:57,240 the bodies, how many people were 1009 00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:00,800 killed sometimes in horrendous ways 1010 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,680 burnt at the stake. How many people were 1011 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,520 killed arguing about the correct view 1012 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,520 about God com is is compared to how many 1013 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,400 people were killed in arguments about 1014 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,560 the correct view of emptiness. I think 1015 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,400 emptiness is in a better better 1016 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,480 position. But still u 1017 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,359 it's we should care more about our own 1018 00:48:26,359 --> 00:48:29,839 behavior than uh about the the behavior 1019 00:48:29,839 --> 00:48:32,480 of of of others. 1020 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,480 And 1021 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,880 um you know like I I even I have friends 1022 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,200 who are engaged in you know these kind 1023 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,920 of Janna battles that you now see in 1024 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,480 certain communities in in the west 1025 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,680 different definitions of what is Janna 1026 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,319 and how to attain Janna and if you 1027 00:48:50,319 --> 00:48:52,240 believe the wrong thing about Janna what 1028 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:53,680 is the first Janna what is the second 1029 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,680 Janna then I won't talk with you or I I 1030 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,400 I I will shout at you which again it's 1031 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,559 it's if it wasn't n't so sad. It would 1032 00:49:02,559 --> 00:49:04,960 have been fun. We uh we wanted to finish 1033 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,880 you all with a lightning round of 1034 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,720 questions. So, we uh maybe 30 seconds or 1035 00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:12,000 a minute or less on each of these 1036 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,599 answers if you're if you're able because 1037 00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:15,680 we have a few of them coming at you. See 1038 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,440 what you can do. Um so, uh first, have 1039 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,880 you ever thought about ordaining? 1040 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,040 Yes, but not seriously. I mean, it's one 1041 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,599 of these things that uh I I realize this 1042 00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:29,760 is just a trick of the mind. I mean this 1043 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:31,920 is actually a very big subject but but 1044 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,680 it's it's I think it's an important 1045 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,960 point that it relates to the issue of 1046 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,240 free will. I don't think that that we 1047 00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:44,400 have free will. I don't think that uh 1048 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,240 people spend so much time trying to make 1049 00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:51,599 the right decision when the decision is 1050 00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:53,480 usually out of their 1051 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,960 hands and this is a waste of of time and 1052 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,319 effort. I think we should focus on being 1053 00:50:00,319 --> 00:50:03,079 aware of the consequences of our 1054 00:50:03,079 --> 00:50:05,280 decisions because this is what will 1055 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,079 really change the next decision instead 1056 00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:11,440 of on trying to make the right decision. 1057 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,440 So one of the things I realized I'm not 1058 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,359 going to obey. There is no point kind of 1059 00:50:17,359 --> 00:50:20,400 spend wasting time and and and mental 1060 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,839 energy on that. uh the conscious mind is 1061 00:50:23,839 --> 00:50:27,280 not the the the prime minister, it's the 1062 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,160 PR department. The decision has been 1063 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,000 taken elsewhere and I'm now just engaged 1064 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,960 in rationalizing it for myself and for 1065 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,400 other people. It's a waste of 1066 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,520 time. So I I left it aside and I tried 1067 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,480 to to be aware of the consequences 1068 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,359 instead of thinking maybe I should, 1069 00:50:49,359 --> 00:50:51,680 maybe I shouldn't. Yeah. And you already 1070 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,640 have the haircut. So 1071 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,480 next question is uh if you were King 1072 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,280 Sudodina the Buddha's father and as he 1073 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,359 the bodhicattva is a baby and you had 1074 00:51:03,359 --> 00:51:05,839 the choice to incline this bodhic sata 1075 00:51:05,839 --> 00:51:07,839 to becoming a wheel turning monarch that 1076 00:51:07,839 --> 00:51:10,000 is someone who could bring utter benefit 1077 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,559 and peace to the whole world versus this 1078 00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:14,480 renuncient path to become a Buddha uh 1079 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,000 attain enlightenment and teach others 1080 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,319 that path which path would you encourage 1081 00:51:18,319 --> 00:51:21,599 the bodhic sappa to take the of course 1082 00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:24,319 the the path of enlightenment and not of 1083 00:51:24,319 --> 00:51:27,040 becoming this universal monarch. Uh 1084 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,599 again I I I know from history that that 1085 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:32,400 that the universal monarchies they 1086 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,000 didn't bring so much benefit to humanity 1087 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,160 and whatever benefit they did manage to 1088 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,040 bring was was very shortterm. 1089 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,720 Um, there is no, this is not a path to 1090 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,559 really save humanity from suffering. 1091 00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:53,200 On a desert island with two books, what 1092 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,520 would they be? 1093 00:51:57,599 --> 00:52:01,359 I don't know. I mean, or no books. Or no 1094 00:52:01,359 --> 00:52:04,760 books. Yeah. 1095 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,040 Um, it's okay. We have another one for 1096 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:11,119 you. It doesn't matter. I mean I again 1097 00:52:11,119 --> 00:52:13,599 as somebody who writes books for a 1098 00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:17,200 living and I know both the advantages 1099 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,319 but also the limitations of 1100 00:52:19,319 --> 00:52:22,559 books. Uh the most important things in 1101 00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,440 life are not learned from books. Books 1102 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,359 can be very helpful to give you some 1103 00:52:27,359 --> 00:52:30,319 kind of initial guidance but the really 1104 00:52:30,319 --> 00:52:32,160 difficult 1105 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,800 uh uh part of what you need to do is is 1106 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,920 not within books. 1107 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,880 You all, if you had 24 hours left to 1108 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,040 live, how would you spend that time? And 1109 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,040 how much of it might be in meditation, 1110 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,160 if any? I have no idea. I mean, whatever 1111 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,800 I say now is meaningless. As I said 1112 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,640 before, this will just be the PR 1113 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,280 department trying to come up with some I 1114 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,119 mean what I've learned in life is that 1115 00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:02,079 we cannot really imagine how we would 1116 00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:05,280 actually behave in a situation that we 1117 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,280 have never been in before. People 1118 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,240 surprise themselves both for good and 1119 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,440 and for bad. 1120 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,240 your most uh unexpected or interesting 1121 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:19,599 meeting with a leading intellectual or 1122 00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:22,000 uh world leader in the last few years. 1123 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,240 Uh someone who you found to be quite 1124 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:26,079 surprising in how they presented or how 1125 00:53:26,079 --> 00:53:28,720 they were. 1126 00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:30,640 Uh oh, I I have to think about 1127 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,599 surprising or inspiring or something 1128 00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:36,680 something of that nature. 1129 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:42,040 H um I I've met Maria Resa from the 1130 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,400 Philippines who won the Nobel Peace 1131 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,440 Prize I think for her activity there. 1132 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,720 And it was just very inspiring to see 1133 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:56,160 someone who works so hard under 1134 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,480 extremely difficult and and dangerous 1135 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,680 and frightening conditions and is still 1136 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,200 kind of bubbling with with joy. 1137 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,760 and uh um like she seems to be enjoying 1138 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,640 life in in the midst of you know this 1139 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,720 extremely difficult situation that that 1140 00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:17,119 she's 1141 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,880 invol one piece of advice might you give 1142 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,599 to Buddhists in general 1143 00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:29,359 um if you give the mind two things to do 1144 00:54:29,359 --> 00:54:32,160 one difficult and one easy it will 1145 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,280 always go for the easy 1146 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:40,200 And um so in especially in in in in the 1147 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,880 practice what I see again and again with 1148 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,760 myself and with other people around me 1149 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,760 is that if we give ourselves too many 1150 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,720 things to do, we just forget about the 1151 00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,400 difficult parts which tend to be the 1152 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:53,160 more 1153 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,000 important. Um for maybe I I give an 1154 00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,559 example for my own 1155 00:54:57,559 --> 00:55:02,000 practice that uh in the Goena tradition. 1156 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,599 So in during the retreat there are times 1157 00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:07,520 when you need to sit for one hour 1158 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,839 without moving at all like sittings of 1159 00:55:09,839 --> 00:55:12,319 adita of strong determination and this 1160 00:55:12,319 --> 00:55:15,520 is just three times a day and it's 1161 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,040 training the mind to deal to experience 1162 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,480 different things but like many of my 1163 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:27,040 friends I developed the wrong view that 1164 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,680 if I manage to sit longer and longer 1165 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,079 without changing my posture 1166 00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:34,800 this means I'm really progressing in in 1167 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:35,640 my 1168 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,880 practice and so I would sit all all 1169 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,720 meditation sittings not just these three 1170 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,119 hours I would every sitting even of two 1171 00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:45,920 hours I would make it an adan practice 1172 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,599 don't and I became very good at it but 1173 00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:51,920 it's at a certain point I noticed it's 1174 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,520 it's not doing me any good at all that 1175 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,119 you know even if you take just somebody 1176 00:55:57,119 --> 00:56:00,000 from the street who never meditated in 1177 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,040 their 1178 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,400 and you tell them if you manage to sit 1179 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,960 for an hour without moving I will give 1180 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,599 you a million dollars they will probably 1181 00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:12,319 be able to do it very painful 1182 00:56:12,319 --> 00:56:14,559 excruciating pain but they will remember 1183 00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:16,319 the million dollars and they will be 1184 00:56:16,319 --> 00:56:20,240 able to do it easy to sit for one hour 1185 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:22,839 or two hours or three hours without 1186 00:56:22,839 --> 00:56:25,920 moving but if you tell them if you 1187 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,200 manage to say focus on your breath for 1188 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,040 10 minutes. For one minute without 1189 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,680 running to some thought, some memory, 1190 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,440 all your attention is just on the 1191 00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,520 reality of the breath, I will give you 1192 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,960 $10 million, they will not be able to do 1193 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,280 it. It is very very difficult. Now if if 1194 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,480 in my practice I have these two things, 1195 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,839 I need to stay with the present reality 1196 00:56:53,839 --> 00:56:56,960 and I need not to move for one hour, the 1197 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,799 mind will tend towards the easy thing of 1198 00:57:00,799 --> 00:57:04,359 not moving. And it's the same with 1199 00:57:04,359 --> 00:57:07,680 fasting. Very easy to fast for a day. 1200 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,119 Very difficult to not allow anger to 1201 00:57:11,119 --> 00:57:14,599 arise in the mind. Um, 1202 00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:18,640 so try to to not to give the mind too 1203 00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,160 many things to do and and not to kind of 1204 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,880 lean more and more towards the easy 1205 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,200 stuff which which looks difficult but 1206 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,040 it's really the less important part of 1207 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,920 the of the practice. 1208 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,040 One uh suta other than the satipana suta 1209 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,480 that you find especially meaningful. 1210 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,200 The easy answer would be the anapana 1211 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,520 suta. Okay. But it's the same thing 1212 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,520 basically. Um I'm not really much of a 1213 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:48,520 suta 1214 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,079 person. Um I I I've read some some some 1215 00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:55,680 sutas but um and I I I tend to think 1216 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,799 that if you if you take just one small 1217 00:57:58,799 --> 00:58:02,880 part of one suta and really practice it, 1218 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,079 this will probably be more beneficial 1219 00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:09,599 than reading the the entire tip. the 1220 00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:12,640 anapana sitta was a good choice. I 1221 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,640 agree. 1222 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,480 Yeah. And just um this doesn't have to 1223 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,359 be a a quick answer but um yeah I mean 1224 00:58:19,359 --> 00:58:21,680 part of the heart of the Goinka 1225 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,680 tradition is you know when you sit to 1226 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,920 meditate you're not inclining towards 1227 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,400 pleasant feelings or not climbing away 1228 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,280 from unpleasant feelings that section of 1229 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,000 the satipana suta. Uh but there are 1230 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,119 other places in the canon when the 1231 00:58:35,119 --> 00:58:37,280 Buddha does talk about actively 1232 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,040 encouraging suka or encouraging 1233 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,040 happiness, encouraging pleasure 1234 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,040 specifically in meditation towards Janna 1235 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,440 practice or encouraging the pleasure, 1236 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,680 the happiness of morality, the 1237 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,799 blamelessness of morality. What do you 1238 00:58:50,799 --> 00:58:52,839 uh what do you feel about that type of 1239 00:58:52,839 --> 00:58:56,079 encouraging like healthy happiness, 1240 00:58:56,079 --> 00:58:58,200 healthy pleasure? 1241 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,720 Mhm. Um I think that in in the in 1242 00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,440 Guangker's tradition this is not 1243 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,920 emphasized at least not it's some it 1244 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,520 does talk about it in the instructions 1245 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,160 in the longer 1246 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,240 retreats but in the initial 1247 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,839 courses my this is my interpretation is 1248 00:59:18,839 --> 00:59:22,880 that again the danger is that if you 1249 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,680 give people difficult things and more 1250 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,400 attractive things they will increasingly 1251 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:29,119 lean 1252 00:59:29,119 --> 00:59:31,760 towards the more more attractive things 1253 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,880 and you know the basic vipasana practice 1254 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,960 that I connected to for me its power was 1255 00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,480 that it was completely 1256 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,240 non-judgmental and it was just observe 1257 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,280 the reality as it is. Now the practice 1258 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,119 of cultivating joy or 1259 00:59:50,119 --> 00:59:51,720 compassion 1260 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,440 it's the the potential problem there is 1261 00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,559 that you can become judgmental. I'm here 1262 00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:02,160 sitting trying to I'm practicing meta. 1263 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,400 I'm trying to develop compassion and 1264 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,559 instead I feel anger or whatever and 1265 01:00:08,559 --> 01:00:11,359 then you I start to judge myself. I'm 1266 01:00:11,359 --> 01:00:13,880 not good. I'm not a good 1267 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,960 practitioner. Um and I start to give 1268 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,960 myself grades. 1269 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,799 And I think when people are more 1270 01:00:21,799 --> 01:00:23,880 established in the 1271 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,480 practice, then it's it's a very 1272 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:31,359 important part of of the practice to 1273 01:00:31,359 --> 01:00:36,480 learn how to cultivate these good uh uh 1274 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,480 uh feelings, these uh uh good qualities. 1275 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,760 But in the initial stages certainly from 1276 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,680 people who don't come from a Buddhist 1277 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:47,680 background 1278 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,520 um it can 1279 01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,400 be even dangerous in a way because it's 1280 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,040 very easy to start building all kinds of 1281 01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,520 stories and 1282 01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:03,160 fantasies about these practices and 1283 01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,720 become attached to them. And this is why 1284 01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,480 I think Guenko did not I mean there is a 1285 01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,319 little bit on it at the end of the 10 1286 01:01:12,319 --> 01:01:15,599 days retreat but for most of the 10 days 1287 01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:18,160 the only instruction is just observe the 1288 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,640 reality as it is. Don't give any 1289 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,000 preference to one state of mind over 1290 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:28,680 another state of mind. Um and 1291 01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:32,920 and I I I think part of 1292 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,720 the of of the issue is that people in 1293 01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,319 different stages of their 1294 01:01:39,319 --> 01:01:43,319 practice need different 1295 01:01:43,319 --> 01:01:47,200 instructions. But Guenko's uh uh mission 1296 01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,240 in a way was to build this kind of 1297 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:53,520 massive gamma factory. He was a 1298 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:58,240 businessman, right? was and he tried to 1299 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:03,760 create you know this uh mass scale 1300 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:04,599 uh 1301 01:02:04,599 --> 01:02:08,559 system that people you don't have a 1302 01:02:08,559 --> 01:02:10,880 teacher who knows you personally. You 1303 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,280 come for a 10 days retreat. Uh the 1304 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,160 teacher there is a volunteer. Maybe they 1305 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,040 teach only one or two courses a year. Uh 1306 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,599 they don't know you deeply and and 1307 01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:24,559 personally. How can we create a system 1308 01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:26,480 that some somebody without any 1309 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,880 background in meditation like I was when 1310 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:34,079 I was in doing this this PhD in Oxford 1311 01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:35,839 how can we create a system that we can 1312 01:02:35,839 --> 01:02:38,359 take someone with no background in 1313 01:02:38,359 --> 01:02:42,480 meditation and within 10 days we with a 1314 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,839 teacher who doesn't know me 1315 01:02:44,839 --> 01:02:48,960 personally to get established in a 1316 01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,359 meditation practice in a way that is 1317 01:02:53,359 --> 01:02:56,960 free of many of the potential dangers 1318 01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,440 that you know after the the retreat ends 1319 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,760 I will go home and then I'm completely 1320 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,480 alone and then I try to do all kinds of 1321 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,839 things and if I I have I don't really 1322 01:03:07,839 --> 01:03:10,000 have experience and I could go in really 1323 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,720 wrong directions. 1324 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,240 So when you try to kind of limit the 1325 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,680 something which will be very very basic 1326 01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,640 that people will that the the danger of 1327 01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:27,520 people kind of uh um misinterpreting it 1328 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,319 and taking it in wrong direction will be 1329 01:03:31,319 --> 01:03:35,119 minimal. Ideally in different settings 1330 01:03:35,119 --> 01:03:37,839 like if you are in a monastery for 1331 01:03:37,839 --> 01:03:40,559 months and years and you have a teacher 1332 01:03:40,559 --> 01:03:43,119 who knows you personally or if you're a 1333 01:03:43,119 --> 01:03:45,440 long-term practitioner inside say the 1334 01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:47,760 Gena tradition or some other tradition 1335 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,799 and you have years of experience 1336 01:03:50,799 --> 01:03:55,039 uh then it's it's it's important to also 1337 01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:59,760 cultivate these other skills. 1338 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:01,599 you. We know we're about at the end of 1339 01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:04,799 our hour. Um, we just wanted to, you 1340 01:04:04,799 --> 01:04:08,240 know, first say, um, I think you went 1341 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,000 out on a limb several times in your 1342 01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,400 books around really speaking a bit to 1343 01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,240 compassion for animals to holding them 1344 01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,079 in our, you know, hearts and awarenesses 1345 01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:19,839 to and to speaking to meditation and the 1346 01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:22,079 importance of introspection. And I just, 1347 01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:24,240 you know, want to thank you for being 1348 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,559 willing to kind of go there in uh, you 1349 01:04:26,559 --> 01:04:27,839 know, an intellectual culture that 1350 01:04:27,839 --> 01:04:29,680 doesn't always support kind of revealing 1351 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:32,000 your the heart or the hand in that in 1352 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,000 that way. And um, feel like you're a bit 1353 01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:35,760 of a secret agent for meditation out 1354 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,400 there in the world. Um, it's so secret. 1355 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:40,559 I mean, people know it. Pretty pretty 1356 01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:43,359 uh, yeah, fair enough. and just want to 1357 01:04:43,359 --> 01:04:45,359 thank you for taking the time uh with us 1358 01:04:45,359 --> 01:04:47,520 and for continuing to sort of have a 1359 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,000 voice in the current moment for uh all 1360 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,839 of us who are navigating this time. So, 1361 01:04:51,839 --> 01:04:54,559 thank you so much and so thank you very 1362 01:04:54,559 --> 01:04:56,880 much for inviting me and for the very 1363 01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:58,760 very important work that that you're 1364 01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,000 doing of uh you know preserving and 1365 01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,280 cultivating the seeds of dharma. Um and 1366 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,359 and one last thing about the the Goena 1367 01:05:09,359 --> 01:05:12,680 tradition is that it is a lay people's 1368 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,720 tradition but it's its root its seed was 1369 01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:20,559 in uh uh communities mon monastic 1370 01:05:20,559 --> 01:05:24,599 communities in Myanmar and without the 1371 01:05:24,599 --> 01:05:27,359 monastics to preserve the seeds of 1372 01:05:27,359 --> 01:05:29,240 dharma we would have lost them 1373 01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,760 completely. And I think that at this 1374 01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,400 present moment in the world when the 1375 01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,760 world is in such chaos and nobody has 1376 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,960 any idea where we are going in in in a 1377 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,599 few years, it's also you know it's 1378 01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:46,079 important to try and spread the dharma 1379 01:05:46,079 --> 01:05:49,559 very wide. But it's also important 1380 01:05:49,559 --> 01:05:53,200 to plant it very very deeply so that at 1381 01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,640 least some seeds remain for the future 1382 01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,920 no matter what happens. 1383 01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:01,839 Thank you, Yuvo. Yeah, and many of us 1384 01:06:01,839 --> 01:06:04,240 monastics, our first introduction into 1385 01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,160 the Dharma was through the Ginka 1386 01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,319 retreats. High percentage of the western 1387 01:06:08,319 --> 01:06:11,200 monastics. So, so very nice talking with 1388 01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:12,960 you. You all come visit us in Seattle if 1389 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:14,640 you're ever anywhere near this part of 1390 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,640 the country. Yeah, if I come to Seattle, 1391 01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:18,240 I'll definitely come and visit. Thank 1392 01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:21,680 you. All right. Thank you. You will. 1393 01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,000 Okay. Bye-bye. 1394 01:06:27,730 --> 01:06:33,559 [Music]